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Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 06:57:57 +0100
From: Antony Phillips
Subject: IVySubs: Death
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**  ivy-subscribers relaying **

Dear ivy-subscriber,

I got a letter from an elderly member of the list, suffering physical
discomfort, and unhappy about death and the prospect of being separated from
his family and friends, asking for my opinions on the subject.
Over the years, I have thought about it quite a lot, and kept my eye out for
data relevant, and I thought that while replying to him, there could be others
on the list that might be interested, or who would like to contribute their
experience or opinions.

If you will add your comment and send to the list, I'd ask you to delete
all of
my contributions, except perhaps any bits which you specifically refer to.

This will be a fast resumé.

There is an article on the subject in IVy 21 (March issue) and I won't go into
the material covered there.

The Pilot wrote about an interesting experience which suggests that without
body we tend to be pretty clueless, similar to (as competent as) a modern bank
clerk whose connection to the computer of the Bank he works for has gone
The Pilot's writings on the subject were issued last weekend on ivy-x, and any
one who wants a copy should write to me with the subject line: "Send Pilot no
body experience" (exact syntax not important, no message needed) and I will
redirect a copy to you.

I have long considered that when one's havingness went down, one became less
rational. I can remember that when my mother died (in England), when I came
back to Denmark I bought with me by boat and train with great difficulty five
large cushions she had, most of which I later gave away.  When my father died,
having bequeathed his body to a hospital for research, when the hospital rang
me asking what I wanted done with the remains (assuming I would want to hold a
burial service, but offering to dispose of them) I said they should get rid of
them. A few years later my aunt, his sister, expressed (with no bitterness or
blame, I must say) regret that there was no family gathering.  In both cases
loss of a body (not mine) was a deep loss of havingness, and affected my
powers of decision and reason.

How much more a loss of havingness would it be when you lose your own body?
How sane and rational will you be under those circumstances?  
Of course it would be wise to die predictably and fairly slowly (take an hour
or so, so you can keep track of all that goes on) rather than in a traumatic
traffic accident. I doubt if any one will think of giving you a touch assist,
or locational assist, when your body is dead :-)  A just happened trauma won't
make things easier for you.

So I would say, decide before hand what you will do,  what you want for your
next life..  When your havingness is high think over the situation, what
decisions you may be faced with, and postulate (decide) what you would do in
such a situation. Don't make decisions in moments of stress either: There have
been stressful times where I would have been inclined to postulate being
reborn in a society without computers :-)

Incidentally, in one (or was it two) cases when I was in good communication
with someone close to death, I casually asked them where they would like to
live, if they could choose (this regardless of whether they believed in
reincarnation). It was intended as a covert (but not hostile) way of getting
them to make a good postulate.

One should bear in mind standard advice on postulates/decisions.  Like
don't be
too specific "I will marry Mary Jones" can have the disadvantage that Mary
Jones is postulating the opposite, and opposing postulates make a problem, or
that Mary Jones, while looking sweet, may be a bitch when you get to know her,
so you should postulate "Marry some one with the following properties..." (
and name the ideal properties you would like)

Postulates work where there is not one or more equally strong postulates for
the opposite.  I postulated for myself a 2D who didn't speak English, and was
not a Scientologist (I had got tired of the service faccyness of
I did not postulate anything about the person being willing to
become a Scientologist.  I got what I postulated - and no more. My 2D is not
interested in Scientology, which I find a great disadvantage. Why did I not
postulate her being a Scientologist who did not exercise service facs?  You
need to be pretty high toned (keyed out) before making these decisions. To add
the good side to that little story, I have got my self in to a situation where
I have many useful lessons to learn and where case weaknesses I have to be
handled show up :-).
[later: Oh, I got a cog after writing that: Instead of considering it was
impossible to interest Ingeborg in Scientology, I could postulate that she
became interested in her own time and manner.]]

While I have had my eyes open for data and experiences of what happens after
death (and before being reborn) what I have come across has been fairly
inconclusive and sparse. There seems the possibility that what a person
experiences varies to fit in with that person's beliefs as to what will
happen.  So at this point, I would tend to limit my decisions to generalities.
Perhaps a good one would be "be in a state and area where I am best able to
obtain data necessary and make wise decisions".

One extra thing does occur to me, which applies to other areas of live than
fear, negative feelings or depression concerning death. It is my belief that
say 90% of the feelings and attitudes (including depressing or unhappy ones)
that we experience we cause ourselves, and we can stop inflicting on
It is not all that easy sometimes, because we could be inflicting on ourselves
ideas that we are not inflicting a specific thing on ourselves, or that it is
impossible to stop doing so. We could even inflict on ourselves the idea that
it would be far better to go off and have a beer, rather than face up to what
ever needs to be faced up to :-)  The thing needs handling on a gradient
And two ways I have found effective (on myself, but I might be weirder than
you) is some of the data contained in Maces book (and associated work) "How to
Turn Upsets into Energy"  (mostly his identity handling, though I think
some of
his ideas are false or unnecessary), and the self help data contained in the
book "The Power of Now" by Ekhart Tolle.  The latter I consider a very
book (admittedly I am only half way through, other things "stopped me" reading
further), especially as (my opinion) it gives a new angle (viewpoint) on some
of the basics in what I consider to be Scientology. (There is a review of this
book on page 12 of last Marches IVy, IVy 56)

Hope that helps, hope it gives food for further progress in this field if you
have some attention on it.

If you reply to this on the list, I'd ask you to delete all of my contribution
except perhaps bits which you specifically refer to. Everyone on the list
will have read what you are replying to, and if they find it of any value,
have kept it, and a repetition of it clogs IVys Archives, and Digests (block
sending of a number of a group of ivy-subscribers messages in one email).
Deleting repeats shows a care and respect for your fellow and later

All best wishes,


Oh, And one more thing,  Since we will be going around without bodies for a
little bit, it might be an idea to go through the processes the Pilot has in
Self Clearing for use without a body (starting with chapter One on
objectives -
The Pilot labels the first process 1.2 Spiritual Version).

Home Page: - with extensive links to FZ!


Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:34:29 -0800 (PST)
From: "N. Brov"
Subject: Re: IVySubs: Death
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**  ivy-subscribers relaying  **

Dear Ant and All,

Death may be a morbid subject, it does not have to be,
but most people associate it with all sorts of down
tone incidents and lots of emotional upheavals.

However, that is if one does not know any better,
or follows the idea it is all over when the body stops
functioning in one way or another.

It is left in the lap of the Gods so to say.

Best is to be able to be aware enough without the body.
If one is able to be aware one can make decisions on
the spot to suite the occasion, that's the best in my

And I am sure there is a likely hood that there may be
all sorts of situations of which we are not aware
right now and are not able to experience or perceive
(while being connected to the body speaking about
myself here).

I had an experience in communicating with a "departed
being" who was in the grave with the body and he had a
decision that he was dead and hang on to it very
firmly. And he would not let go of it easily.

From that one above, one has to be more aware and not
to make such decisions,
as one will finish up with the decisions one makes.

Also other experiences from the beings (on the other
side) that they can and do communicate,
they can and do assist one if one lets them.
And these are the good guys, not the ones that are
there to implant one to trick one.

In my humble opinion the best way is to;
Find out as much as possible about the conditions that
await one without the body.
Clean up the past traumas connected with death and
other lives.
Make oneself aware of ones origins (without the body).
Do the processes that are available (of which there
are many) to prepare oneself as much as one can.
Not to make decisions that the separation of the body
is the final step for one as well.
Also keep in mind that being aware is the most optimum.
One has the basic "know" about all sorts of things and
that maybe the time to use it to one's advantage.

I am sure these would be the most basic steps or
ideas, there are many more or more specific.

It would be nice to hear other opinions.

Home Page: - with extensive links to FZ!


Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:43:22 +0100
From: Antony Phillips
Subject: IVySubs: Death
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**  ivy-subscribers relaying  **

dear ivy-subscriber,

I sometimes receive items which seem better sent to this list, and am left
a) was it meant just for me,
b) was it intended for the list and came to me by accident,
c) was it sent to me because the person wanted to remain anonymous, and wanted
me to post it.
To handle it terminatedly, (rather than originating querying emails to the
sender and waiting for an answer) I tend to post to the list anon immediately
-  the person can claim authorship later if s/he wants to.

here is one received today.

On the subject of death re your e-mail to the ivy list, I have found the
following useful.  In buddahism, they have certain meditation exercises
which basically consist of viewing (mocking up) the disintegration of one's
own body.  ie, one imagines one's own body dying, and then imagines it as it
bloats, changes colour, flesh begins to rot, worms, etc eat it, flesh thus
disappears, skeleton is left, and then bones wear away and then no body.  I
tried it and found it gave a very realistic feeling of being apart from the
body, of existing separately from the body and it gives one an understanding
of the feeling involved with losing the current body, and the chance to
think what to do.  Sounds a bit gruesome, but I found it is effective in
getting an understanding of existing without a body.
I find that very interesting, since I know little of alternative things
of Scn.  The person sending me the above has never been near official
Scientology organisations, and thus probably does not know that there
is/was a Scientology creative process very much in that direction.

I can remember some "idiot" teacher in a Scientology based school in East
Grinstead (near the original Saint Hill) got a class of children to group
on that, The local paper got to hear of it, and wrote an article with a
headline something like "Death Lessons at Scientology School".  It was the
early 60s (possibly just before I joined staff there in Aug 64).  There was a
lot of bad publicity, and I believe it was that (if it was not the rather
unwelcome actions of a Harry Thomsen) that provoked Ron into forbidding the
private practice of Scientology within a certain radius around Saint Hill.

The process would be a marvelous one, allowing one to key in and discharge
charge on the subject of death.
(I wonder if any one remembers where the process was mentioned,  I suspect it
was Muriel Payne's book, or the book "Creative Learning", both of which
came out in the 50's and were "banned" later as non LRH)

(It also reminds me of the song:
Did ever you see a hearse go by,
and get the feeling you're going to die ...

which includes the line:
the worms go in and the worms go out ...  
all sung melodramatically)

All best wishes,


P.S. A loss has a tendency to hold attention in the past, and I suppose one
consciously put one's attention in the future. One good way is "what would I
really, really like to do, and what sort of people would I really, really like
to do it with".  Can be done before the loss (of one's body, for example, or a
dieing husband)

Home Page: - with extensive links to FZ!